Ironically or not, Doug Wilson has been recently promoting a “documentary” about free speech, heavily featuring interviews with himself, if the trailer is representative. Specifically, about how your right to free speech is being threatened by people who don’t like you saying things that make them feel all persecuted.
I hope Doug was looking in a mirror when he described this scenario.
Because never in my life have I seen any group of people so quick to jump on those who say the “wrong” thing as Doug’s supporters in the CREC. Or post the “wrong” article. I’ve read emails — not all of them directed at me — from any number of people stating that nobody (except Doug, obviously!) should be talking about the way the CREC handles abuse. One woman I know shared a letter written by someone who was vaguely threatening to get her fired because she’d posted Natalie’s blogs on Facebook. People who are no longer even attending Christ Church and Trinity are being called the enemy (or “Orcs”) because they’re posting Natalie’s blogs on Facebook. This isn’t the first time this has happened in the CREC — Emeth Hesed writes about how her pastor showed up at her house at 11:30 pm and stayed for three hours lecturing her because she’d written a blog post he didn’t like.
If you attend Christ Church or Trinity, and you don’t believe me, try it. Try supportively re-posting Natalie’s most recent post and see what happens. See how fast your pastors/elders/deacons (or their wives) come out of the woodwork and strongly recommend that you take down the post and/or issue a public apology, on (insinuated, probably never explicitly stated) pain of losing your “member in good standing” status.
Now, let’s take a step back — I get the rationale behind not posting things publicly. Within church government, the theory goes, you’re supposed to take your concerns to the person in question first. If he doesn’t listen, you take another person to confront him. If that doesn’t work, you bring it up before the assembly. That way, it doesn’t get all messy and public.
The problem with this line of thinking: we’ve gone through all these stages and then some. Many, many people tried speaking with the pastors and elders about the way abuse was handled in the church before they realized that wasn’t going anywhere. Then they tried speaking more broadly within the church, tried speaking before the assembly. But that doesn’t exactly work if you’re being forced out of the assembly and labeled a malcontent, a troublemaker, for speaking up.
How in the world do you pull a “go to your brother and confront him” when your mouth is taped shut? When you’re told “you don’t know the whole story” and sent on your way?
Also: why would anyone be required to keep controversy out of the public eye when Doug Wilson’s whole persona is built around flinging controversy into the public eye? Including in this specific case?
Natalie’s latest post, by the way, is not about spreading gossip. On the contrary. It’s about correcting false gossip — the false gossip Doug Wilson spread when he told a packed-out meeting that Gary Greenfield, Natalie’s father, was abusive to his family to the point that it prevented the church from doing more to help Natalie (that’s Doug’s logic and he’s sticking to it — never mind that if in actuality, Natalie was straight-up surrounded by abusive people, all the more reason for the church to get involved and provide her with support). Nancy Wilson (Doug’s wife) had already stated this publicly on her blog back on October 20, informing commenters that part of the story Natalie wasn’t telling had to do with why Gary had been “suspended from the Supper.” Shortly thereafter, after a multitude of deleted comments made by people trying to set the record straight, she expounds on this by stating “we have gone through our minutes and records and this is what happened: Gary was suspended from the Supper (one step before excommunication) for his abusive mistreatment of his family.” Then she closed the comments.
Who is accusing Gary Greenfield of being abusive? Doug specifically stated that “the way Gary treated his family was every bit as bad as the way Jamin treated [his ex-wife].” This is just plain absurd. Gary’s entire family — you know, the family Doug claimed was being so terribly abused — has gone on record defending him and stating this is major hyperbole, to put it mildly. And you know, I can easily imagine that during the scenario ten years ago, in the middle of a divorce and a family finding out that their daughter had been abused under their roof, things got a little heated. I have no doubt Gary yelled and acted out of character. He’s admitted as much. But that’s pretty normal behavior when human relationships get that messy. And the fact that Doug would cling to this in the face of Gary’s family correcting the record is strange, to put it mildly. The fact that Doug would use this to downplay Jamin Wight’s “sexual behavior” (Doug’s words) with Natalie is even more strange.
Doug Wilson may be a good counselor in some scenarios. I’m sure he is, in fact — I believe the people who tell me he’s helped them. But I also know that he is not remotely qualified to pass judgement on the legal ins and outs of abusive situations. He makes it more obvious every day. He also has proven that at least in these cases, he does not understand human behavior, human emotion or the way humans heal from abuse. And that is particularly risky in a congregation that implicitly forbids widespread discussion about how abuse needs to be handled.
Botkin Creative 
Just yes. So much EXACTLY!! Thanks, Katie.
The issue in question is *not* “Is my right to free speech in America being threatened?”
The actual issue in question is “Does Doug Wilson have the right to smugly and flatulently call people homos, bull dykes, harridans, and small-chested biddies with complete impunity and zero fear of repercussions?”
The answer is “Of course not, fuck that guy.”
Also, Doug Wilson is a colossal asshole. Doug Wilson is a corpulent, pale, pasty, obese, squidgy, obstreperous, onerous, complacent, sociopathic fatass douchebag asshole son-of-a-bitch. Doug Wilson can go fuck himself with a tire iron.**
**See? ^^free speech being exercised in America, right there. GO ‘MURICA
(I consulted the Thesaurus for this one because I know how much Dougie-boy loves himself some big words. Hope you enjoyed reading this comment, you fat prick.)
thank you.
I have notice something about these guys that they will never admit. They want there to be two sets of rules. One set for them (and perhaps theirs) and another for everyone else. That is what Patriarchy is. Different rules for different groups. Different laws. They don’t want a common law that applies to everyone.
But the thing about two different sets of laws is that it is unjust. Wilson is the king of his kirk and wants to be above the rules he sets for others. Of course he wants freedom of speech for himself and will demand it. But, as been said, he is ONLY concerned about his own freedom of speech. No one else is allowed this if it doesn’t agree with him or if it uncovers his incompetence.
The king of the kirk is unjust toward his subjects.
Justice for anyone besides him is not a concern.
But justice is a huge concern to God. Here it is in black in the Old Testament and Red in the New.
Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?
Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
I read with a gasp of surprise Doug Wilson’s silly and grandiose claim that he is “a world renowned pastor and author.” (Source: http://syntaxcreative.com/clients/ ) I can’t imagine that anyone who knows him (outside his own little club) thinks of him in those terms.
The self-published press release for his new film “The Free Speech Apocalypse” describes Doug Wilson as the” most hated preacher in America.” (Source: http://christiannewswire.com/news/1726576868.html .
Well, hardly. And, even if it were true that is not the kind of endorsement most ministers would seek. The truth is that he is little more than a festering pimple on the ass end of Idaho, a toxic embarrassment to the mainstream community of Moscow, and a disgrace to the Gospel.
This is the best description of the Doug Wilson I know:
“he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 1 Timothy 6:4
Rose Huskey
Poor delusional Doug Wilson. The real truth is that 99.9% of North Americans don’t have any clue who he is. The only reason I know who he is, is that I got interested in cases where abuse happens in church.
As to him being hated, I’d say more of us either pity him (because he is delusional), or look down on him with disgust (for his actions in backing the perpetrator and not the victim).
Someday he might understand this, but I doubt it.
Doug Wilson is doing exactly as he pleases; the more people he offends and infuriates, the more puffed up he appears. He enjoys harming people. He believes they deserve it. It is his idea of corporal punishment, ordained by God.
His counseling sessions are spiritually detailed: What kind of sex are you having? Is it oral? How many times and in what positions? All these facts are integral in bringing proper chastisement and correction from Jesus.
Remember, his is a gospel with teeth and he has trained his web-pack to bite and mock simultaneously.
None dare question the Alpha male.
But it is all coming apart and all he has to do to help it is be Doug Wilson.
Westboro Baptist look out! The world-renowned, glorious DW has arrived on the world stage!
Goodness, did you get that kind of counseling from him? What kind of counseling is that and what could the purpose be? Are some positions sinful?
no apologies!! smdh.
The Douglas is “world renowned”. “The most hated preacher in America”, when outside of a very small circle, no one in America has ever heard of him. This may come as a surprise to him, but a whole lot of people in Moscow, home of his “world renowned” theological empire, have never heard of him. He (and Nancy) are all about free speech, except, apparently, when someone posts a disagreeable view on The Douglas’s or (The?) Nancy’s blog. Speech, if critical, isn’t so free in his little fiefdom, yet that’s, of course, just different. But naturally, his “enemies” (who, judging from his rhetoric, are also the “enemies” of his Dougsciples) cannot understand that. What a twit.
“He (and Nancy) are all about free speech, except, apparently, when someone posts a disagreeable view on The Douglas’s or (The?) Nancy’s blog.”
Not even just on their blogs. Someone who said they were at that meeting and disagreed with what happened had posted his support for Natalie on her blog, then deleted it a day or two later. Pressured, I presume. What kind of “free speech” is that?
Douglas Wilson’t “Free Speech” movie must be a tongue-in-cheek comedy.
Douglas Wilson’s idea of free speech extends to… himself and the fam, like when his daughter throws a toddler tizzy fit on her blog about women who don’t see it her way- Free Speech. When Doug doesn’t think women are obedient or submissive or something- Free Speech:
Waifs with Manga eyes, Harridan, Dyke, Woman who couldn’t hit the rear end of a bull with a snow shovel, Lumber-jack dykes, Small breasted, Biddies, Harpy, Avid reader of Cosmopolitan and thinks she knows 15K ways to please a man in bed, Surly, Feminazi, Feminist minions.
But free speech for a man who has sympathy with a sexual AND SPIRITUAL abuse victim? My God, get it off the internet!
If you were to click over to Natalie’s blog (linked in the post) and look at the comments, you will notice that one comment was deleted. It is apparent from the comments replying to it that it was a comment favorable towards Natalie. Perhaps that man was summoned before the tribunal that is Douglas Wilson and made to remove it. Perhaps so that he would feel the shame of countering Doulas Wilson, he was made to apologize too. Perhaps. Because that is what ABUSIVE SPIRITUAL LEADERS do, they troll the internet and demand compliance and subjugation from “their sheep.”
That fear of “liking” something on Facebook for fear an elder or Douglas Wilson will come calling is called SPIRITUAL ABUSE.
Outside of Christ Church in Moscow, we refer to the double standard that is Douglas Wilson as hy. poc. ri. sy
“An appearance of virtue or religion. A characteristic of a false spiritual leader is that he attempts to affect virtues or qualities he does not have. And he has a different set of rules for himself than everyone else. He is a hypocrite.”
(Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse- David Johnson)
It happens in CREC churches outside Moscow, too. A church you’re familiar with and have family in. And it was utterly agonizing for my family…
I did read the comment on Natalie’s blog before the author deleted it. It was absolutely in support of Natalie and her father. As soon as I read it, I started praying for the commenter and his family. If the deletion was a result of pressure from DW this is truly the most ironic and hypocritical example of a ‘free speech apocalypse’.
And, Terri–you mention the whole ‘liking’ something on Facebook…In a recent blog post by DW, he mentions that as well–essentially stating ‘we see you and know who you are’. This ought to concern every single member of his church.
Dear People of the Wilson community–please think long and hard about DW’s statements/threats–how are they not a violation of FREE SPEECH!?
-Mary
From Douglas Wilson’s blog post, ‘The High Mountain Air of Public Calumny’ on September 7, 2015–
‘They “like” articles and posts they shouldn’t, and don’t seem to be aware that what they are doing is quite visible and consequential.’
‘Visible’ makes perfect sense–but it’s the ‘consequential’ part of this statement that is very disturbing.
Truly a free speech mockery.
-Mary
It would be interesting to read anything from this man’s followers explaining how this sort of not even thinly veiled threat to any sheep that may stray, and have the temerity, to “like” articles and posts he or she “shouldn’t” like, could (will) face “consequences”, is in any way, shape or form, not an example of loss of freedom. Or explain how, if not an example of freedom, it’s somehow allowable and “different”. Hypocrisy, thy name is Douglas Wilson. And you rule over a cult.
CNW, I believe they would say that Doug’s standard for “liking” posts has to do with what GOD wants. If they like certain things, they’re sinning, and they should get reproved for it. Fortunately for Doug, his opinions about things such as what to like on Facebook always line up exactly with what God wants.
Mary and CNW, here is an explaination of the consequences:
“Doug Wilson may be a good counselor in some scenarios. I’m sure he is, in fact — I believe the people who tell me he’s helped them. But I also know that he is not remotely qualified to pass judgement on the legal ins and outs of abusive situations. He makes it more obvious every day. He also has proven that at least in these cases, he does not understand human behavior, human emotion or the way humans heal from abuse.”
Ok Katie, so let’s say Wilson is not an “expert” on “abuse”.
Katie Botkin, are you an “expert” on “abuse”?
Katie, are you “remotely qualified to pass judgement on the legal ins and outs of abusive situations.”?
Are the “heal the Kirk” folks “experts” on “abuse”?
Katie, if you were honest, (and you are not) you would find that certain “abuse” experts are not actually experts at all, as you will see. Especially the self pronounced “christian abuse experts” referred to by “heal the Kirk” folks.
The problem with these “christian” folks is that they depend on Lundy Bancroft, a writer with no medical or other credentials, for their abuse “expertise”.
The problem with “abuse expert” Lundy Bancroft is that he is:
A. a cult founder.
http://transitiontoanewworld.blogspot.com/2011/03/new-spiritual-community.html
and
B. a charlatan.
http://www.fatherhoodcoalition.org/cpf/newreadings/2004/MC_Basile_v_Harvard_junk_science.htm
http://www.fatherhoodcoalition.org/cpf/2003/LundyNtonForum030619.htm
On Amazon.com, the “one star” reviews of his book are quite telling:
“1.0 out of 5 starsPulp Psychology for Angry Controling Women
ByJimAtLargeon November 2, 2010
Format: Paperback “While a great tool to free abusively enslaved women from shackles of fear and shame placed on them by a sociopathic man, this book is dangerous in the wrong hands….”
Katie Botkin; “Now, let’s take a step back — I get the rationale behind not posting things publicly. Within church government, the theory goes,…..”
No Katie, you really don’t get that. If you did, you would also understand that:
James 3
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.
Katie, Lundy Bancroft’s cult addled manipulative writings are the “source” of the earthly, unwise “abuse expertise” that most if not all “Kirk” “abuse” critics have been taken in by.
Seems like you have been taken in by the same Katie. As such, you and they are dupes about “abuse”, not “experts”.
You do not know “how abuse needs to be handled”.
And Katie, per James 3, you do seem pretty bitter about your experience with Christ Church and Wilson. I am sorry that your feelings are so hard for you. I do know that Gods’ Spirit can work us through our feelings. He has me, with mine.
Ecclesiastes 9:17
The quiet words of the wise are more to be heeded than the shouts of a ruler of fools.
Finally Katie, having the freedom to speak is no guarantee that the words we speak are freeing. I hope that you can now see that much of this dark “abuse expertise” is earthly, unspiritual, cultic and demonic. It is damaging to the speakers and those spoken of. It is not peace-loving. Perhaps thanks are in order to some Christ Church folks who have advised Christ Church critics to be slow to speak.
Katie, I am advising you to stop speaking for a bit, until you get your head back on straight.
To close on a humorous note, I hope you will consider re-naming your post :
“The Free speech Monkeys”. ; – )
JFS, I haven’t promoted any of those links/people, so I’m not sure what your issue is with me in relation to them… and as far as I know, the “heal the kirk” folks haven’t either.
In other words he is the Pope of his little reformation group/cult.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Won’t get fooled again. Yeah, right.
http://moscowid.net/2015/11/03/the-christ-church-commitment-to-loyalty-freespeechapocalypse/
@ JFS
Ok Katie, so let’s say Wilson is not an “expert” on “abuse”.
Katie Botkin, are you an “expert” on “abuse”?
Katie, are you “remotely qualified to pass judgement on the legal ins and outs of abusive situations.”?
Are the “heal the Kirk” folks “experts” on “abuse”?
Katie, if you were honest, (and you are not) you would find that certain “abuse” experts are not actually experts at all, as you will see. Especially the self pronounced “christian abuse experts” referred to by “heal the Kirk” folks.
Anyone who reads the very tiniest bit of what Jamin did to Natalie KNOWS it was abuse. Also, Pastor Leithart admitted pastoral failures and being manipulated by Jamin. I cannot emphasize enough how healing an apology and admission like that can be for a victim…even reluctantly given. Meanwhile, DW digs in his heals.
I hope and pray all this exposure might protect our children and gives a voice to others being hurt.
Yes, Wight sexually abused Natalie, and later Wight abused his wife.
The other guy, by his own admission, molested children.
No one disputes that, everyone “KNOWS” that.
Knowing that abuse happens still does not make one an “expert” on abuse.
I hope that self styled “abuse expert” Christ Church critics will be exposed, and as a result, go about speaking to their own sin, and then the sin of others in a godly, Word grounded fashion, instead of a charlatan “abuse expert” fashion.
This charlatan “abuse expertise” is not about healing, it is about doing as much damage as it can.
To summarize, speak to sin as Jesus instructs. That is the best way to promote healing, Justice and Peace.
@ JFS
‘To summarize, speak to sin as Jesus instructs. That is the best way to promote healing, Justice and Peace.’
Amen. It is not easy or popular to call out a Pharisee. But, that’s what Jesus was all about.
@JFS just because Lundy Bancroft gets mentioned as one of many experts on abuse is not the same thing as meaning those who have found his writings useful wholly depend on them or do not view them through a Scriptural lens. What you are saying in your own exercise of freedom of speech is that only Doug Wilsonian interpretation of Scripture is valid. And you are telling others to stop talking because they have a different understanding of Scripture from DW. If that’s not a cult mentality and violation of the freedom we have in Christ I’m not sure what is. In any case, we don’t need Doug Wilson to tell us what free speech is. As Christians it doesn’t matter what the government or society permit; we are free to live and speak truth in love.
And I will add it doesn’t matter what Doug Wilson, the CREC, or the “Kirk” say, Christians answer to Christ and have a responsibility to speak against abuse of God’s authority. We are the freest people on earth; we cannot be slaves of men.
Wow Melody, you are really wrong about what I am saying.
Lundy Bancroft’s “work” cannot be viewed through a scriptural lens except by James 3:13-18.
He is not legitimate. His “wisdom” is earthly and pretty awful.
So far as I know, Wilson has never commented on me or Lundy Bancroft.
I simply have never said anything like “only Doug Wilsonian interpretation of scripture is valid.”
Here is what Gods Word says about the “wisdom” of cult founders like Bancroft.
James 3:15-16.
15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.
16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
Melody, this is The Word of God, Christ’s Word.
What is your answer to it?
It does matter what God says. Don’t be a “slave” to the “teaching” of a cult founder, Lundy Bancroft.
JFS (FWIW incidentally, I’m not a Christian, just a Moscow resident fed up with Wilson’s BS, so tossing Biblical references at me means nothing to me), you want to address the “loyalty pledge”?
CNW, confidentiallity agreements per below are actually pretty common in professional settings. What with all those Dr.s of letters etc. around NSA, a loaylty / confidentiality agreement is common.
But there is something weird about NSA, it’s the “secret hand shake”. If you are an NSA member and you reveal it, I think they make you live in Pullman! ; – )
CNW, keep searching for that elvis!
“Confidentiality”
The existence, nature, terms and conditions of this Agreement are strictly
confidential and shall not be disclosed by either of the parties in any manner or form,
directly or indirectly, to any person or entity under any circumstances.
Employee shall not discuss, comment upon, disparage, or disclose any
information, in any manner or form, directly or indirectly, to any person or entity, about:
(1) the Employer;
(2) Employer’s officers, directors, shareholders, agents, other
employees, or other representatives;
(3) any aspect of Employer’s business or operations;
(4) any aspect of Employee’s employment with Employer.
Further, Employer shall not discuss, comment upon, disparage, or
disclose any information, in any manner or form, directly or indirectly, to any person or entity, about Employee.
The parties shall not assist, or cooperate with, any other person or entity
in committing any act which, if committed by either of the parties, would constitute a
violation of this section.
Any violation of this section by either of the parties shall be deemed a
material breach of this Agreement.
@ JFS
‘CNW, confidentiallity agreements per below are actually pretty common in professional settings. What with all those Dr.s of letters etc. around NSA, a loaylty / confidentiality agreement is common.’
But the letter for Dr. Schuler was directed to staff members of Christ Church. In all sincerity I ask you, what is the biblical basis for a church to require a ‘loyalty commitment’? especially one that allows for ZERO discussion of concern? (Free speech, anyone?)
JFS, I do not wish to hijack this thread, so I will close by simply saying you failed to explain the rationale for the contract to me, but perhaps that’s just me. Neither your mind or mine will be changed by the other, so further dialogue is fruitless. We remain diametrically opposed. BTW, I’m not “searching for that Elvis”, Elvis is dead. But Jimmy Hoffa…….
CNW, I was a bit confused about the story in the link you noted. The narrative of the post was about an NSA staff member, while the form posted was for Christ Church employees. (an apple and an orange) Anyway, these agreements are simply quite common in the employmennt world. I have had to sign them in my secular work. As applied to Christ Church, James 4:11-12 would be the scriptural rational for such a formal agreement.
Finally C’, if you live in Moscow and Dash lives in Moscow, could you have the poor guy over for dinner or something? He is hurting and could use some friends close by. I am on the east coast. Thanks, JFS
James 4
11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand hey presto, the zombies JFS and Mary show up to argue in defense of Mr. Doug. Did someone say “Beetlejuice” in a mirror three times or what?
Also, pray tell: what does it cost to get a lobotomy at Christ Church in Moscow? How much did you two pay to get yours? Is there a qualified surgeon who conducts the procedure? Or does Doug Wilson just stick an ice pick into each of your foreheads at your first communion service?
Oops, my apologies to Mary. I misread your quotes. It appears JFS is the only zombie. I’m still interested in the lobotomy part though, JFS. Did it hurt?
Dash, life is indeed tough. I am sorry to hear about your troubles that you have mentioned previously. That being said, you yourself mentioned that at times it seems like your own head if filled with “feral cats”.
Why are you comfortable speculating on what may or may not go on in other people’s heads?
Seriously, did you ever look in to an abuse support group?
JFS: “Ok Katie, so let’s say Wilson is not an ‘expert’ on abuse.
Katie Botkin, are you an ‘expert’ on ‘abuse’?
Katie, are you ‘remotely qualified to pass judgement on the legal ins and outs of abusive situations.’? ”
Okay, I’ll bite.
Wilson lacked and still lacks the common sense and integrity needed in order to recognize the seriousness of the situation he has perpetuated and continues to cover.
Katie has a whole heck of a lot more common sense and integrity than Wilson because she not only sees what is blatantly obvious to the casual observer, she’s willing to stand up for the oppressed and abused and call out the Pharisees who want to throw away victims and defend sexual predators.
Doug Wilson is a False Shepherd and a Pharisee.
He’s built his own kingdom and paraded it around as ‘God’s Kingdom’.
He has healed the brokenness of God’s people superficially (Jeremiah 6:14), especially the daughters of God’s people (Jeremiah 8:11).
There is no balm of Gilead at the Kirk. There is nothing there to restore the health of the daughters of God’s people at the Kirk (Jeremiah 8:22).
Doug Wilson believes he is wise and the Law of the Lord is with him. But his lying pen as made the Word of God a lie (Jeremiah 8:8) so the instead of caring for the little lambs, he cares for wolves and himself.
(There, see. Other people can reference scripture. Other people can hurl scripture verses toward the ones they disagree with. Perhaps next time you should leave scripture out of it and argue the points instead.)
@JFS Finally, while we’re throwing Bible verses around, bear in mind Doug’s behavior disqualifies him because it gives him a poor reputation with people outside the church. Imo that’s the main reason he deletes comments and attacks a family. I am in agreement with many believers and unbelievers that his actions amount to serious pastoral malpractice. Here are some verses for you (and anyone watching who needs to leave the “Kirk” to follow Christ): 1 Corinthians 5:1-2.
(And when I say “finally”, I mean I won’t be responding further to JFS. I would like though, while I’m exercising my freedom of speech, to add Isaiah 5:20-24 to those Bible references being thrown around…)
1 Corinthians 5
5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?
Melody, who in the “KirK” are you saying is “sleeping with his father’s wife”?
Mara and Melody, please do keep referencing scripture. We are not in control of The Word. It always does the work of The One who spoke it, and never returns to Him empty.
Isaiah 55
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Referencing scripture in order to make yourself appear right and in good standing with God and deciding the person you are clobbering with the Bible is not right or in good standing… that is NOT the way to do it.
Your quote from Isaiah concerning God’s ways being higher than ours and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. Those words are true. But you really don’t get it.
You pretty much claim to have God’s thoughts on this when they are your own thoughts. You just throw in a couple of random scriptures that don’t have a whole heck of a lot to do with the topic to make your own words appear to have more authority than they do.
This is NOT how you use scripture, to clobber others and to get them to shut up when they are talking about something that makes you uncomfortable.
You study them, you hide them in your heart, and you let them speak to your life. Then you are able to share in love and humility to help others.
You don’t take them and make them into what you want, to serve your own purposes. This is what Doug Wilson does with the Bible. That is what disqualifies him. And as I’ve watched you quote scriptures here, this is what you are doing.
2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Mara, your own words are not as compelling as Gods Word.
The Word is speaking to you. I am not “clobbering” you.
If I am mis-using Gods Word, speak to me as best you can,
After that God will deal with me, if there is a problem.
Right?
And Mara, you mighht not be quite as humble as you think you are.
Jeremiah 23
28 Let the prophet who has a dream recount the dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the Lord. 29 “Is not my word like fire,” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?
30 “Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31 Yes,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ 32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the Lord. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord.
Wow, I demonstrate that a charlatan “abuse expert” Lundy Bancroft, is a self pronounced cult founder, but some people still want to go on a “speck hunt” on eyes other than their own.
Every one needs mercy. Not everyone is willing to give it.
It is so predictable that the 1 Corinthians 5 reference would be taken to mean I am making a specific accusation. What is missing in JFS’s discussion is any understanding of the Corinthianesque pride level we are observing in Doug Wilson’s kingdom and the fact that pedophilia and abuse of power are unacceptable to unbelievers, as the Corinthian church’s behavior was to unbelievers then.
There is no use trying to make the willfully blind see though.
As for the Bancroft issue, IMO the commentary and links provided by JFS sound like conspiracy theory level stuff, but regardless, Bancroft’s credentials or lack thereof or motivation or whatever are irrelevant to this blogpost, as its author already stated.
Doug’s supporters like to obfuscate and attack using Scripture and diversion but that isn’t what a holy God of love does. Such tactics usually come from another direction.
And Mara is right about Doug’s people twisting God’s Word to shut people up. That is manipulative, and yes, absolutely abusive.
James 4
11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
13 Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes. All such boasting is evil. 17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
Melody, you are not making much music here. You mis-apply the Word and then accuse others of the same, when they do not do the same.
Lundy Bancroft himself annoucing to the world, his own cult, “nature’s temple” is not “consirarcy theory”, it is simple fact.
However Melody, I do not think I can make the blind see, I do know that God can. That is why I repeat His Word to you, not my own.
Amen.
John 9
30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”
34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.
35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
36 “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”
37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”
38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
39 Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”
40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”
41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
Thanks for this post, Katie. Glad for your voice.
JFS: “And Mara, you mighht not be quite as humble as you think you are.”
What a strange conclusion you have come to.
I don’t recall ever claiming to be humble.
I was only relating the proper way to share scripture.
Yet you assume to know what I think about my own humility level and to JUDGE what you think that I think.
Amazing.
Perhaps you aren’t as wise and discerning as you think you are.
In your judgement my dear. Here is what you said about yourself”
“You study them, you hide them in your heart, and you let them speak to your life. Then you are able to share in love and humility to help others. You don’t take them and make them into what you want, to serve your own purposes. This is what Doug Wilson does with the Bible. That is what disqualifies him. And as I’ve watched you quote scriptures here, this is what you are doing.”
You are telling me what your humility level is, as well as you are telling me what mine is. Do you recall what you said above now? Or is it me just being awful?
Again Mara, here is what the scripture its’ self, says about the proper use of scripture. God’s Word does not match your Word.
2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
But Mara, don’t listen to me, look to the Word and read it. Learn from God, not from me. God is pretty good at speaking for Himself through His Word.
Within limits, how the Word speaks to us can vary.
I have made no “judgements” of you, but commented on your own judgements of your self.
To conclude with a Mara approved, non-judgemental statement:
“Perhaps you aren’t as wise and discerning as you think you are.” Mara.
JFS: “If I am mis-using Gods Word, speak to me as best you can,
After that God will deal with me, if there is a problem.
Right? ”
I already explained what you are doing wrong. I’m not going to go in circles with you over this as people from the Kirk love to do.
Now, besides clobbering people with scriptures to try to get them to shut up about the injustices at the Kirk, you are flooding the comment section with torrents of scriptures that serve no real purpose except to keep you from facing the truth about how ill and broken the Kirk really is.
Dumping loads of scriptures is, in essence, you plugging your ears and saying, “La, la, la, can’t hear you, la, la, la.”
Misapplying the Word here does not proving to anyone that you are spiritually superior or even that you have God’s word in your heart. It just proves that you can parrot it.
And as far as God dealing with you?
I don’t know how hard your heart is. God doesn’t strive with men forever. If someone is determined they are right and finds security in their self-righteousness, there is only so far that God with go with that.
So I don’t know if you would be able to hear Him or not?
Not my call.
Mara, I am not trying to get you to shut up. I’m trying to get you to think.
Deuteronomy 8
2 Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. 3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.
“Misapplying the Word here does not proving to anyone that you are spiritually superior or even that you have God’s word in your heart. It just proves that you can parrot it.”
I am not misapplying the Word here. I hold the Word in higher esteem than my own word, and also yours.
“If someone is determined they are right and finds security in their self-righteousness, there is only so far that God with go with that.”
But you are “right” Mara, not me, right?
God is always right, that’s why I go with His Word, mine not so much.
JFS, you are not making sense. The verses you cherry pick prove nothing
“If someone is determined they are right and finds security in their self-righteousness, there is only so far that God with go with that.”
The gospel according to Mara.
JFS: “I’m trying to get you to think.”
Really?
About what?
Anything and everything BESIDES the issues at hand?
Here are the facts.
Doug Wilson sided with a sexual predator against his victim thus abusing her all over again.
Doug Wilson broke up a family over this case by blaming the father rather than admit his mistakes.
Doug Wilson threatens to release Natalie’s journals she wrote while going through the abuse.
Doug Wilson slanders the father of the victim saying he’s just as bad as the sexual predator that Wilson has defended.
This is what this thread is about.
Instead of dealing with any of that, you are all concerned about whether Katie is an abuse expert, whether I’m humble (your comment last night at 7:45 is one hot mess), and whether Melody is the one misapplying the Word.
You want me to state clearly how you are misapplying the Word?
Okay, here you go.
You are using it to confuse, deflect, distract, and muddy the waters.
You are trying to get people off of the gross malpractice of Doug Wilson against a child (now grown) and her family.
You are trying to point people away from how Doug Wilson continues to try to bully them, accuse them, threaten them, all the while ignoring his own sins that just keep multiplying. He’s the one who needs teaching, rebuking, correcting. He’s the one who needs to stop slandering. But you aren’t using the scripture correctly towards him. You are turning it on the ones who are declaring the truth, exposing his dark deeds to the light.
Sure, you want me to think. But not about Doug Wilson and his kirk cult.
You want to sweep this under the rug and make it go away.
And you are not above misusing God’s word in order to do it.
Do you really think God is in agreement with you misusing His Word to cover up injustice, negligence, and further oppressing the oppressed.
Do you really?
May God deal with your heart on this.
I wouldn’t want to be guilty of misusing His Word the way you are.
Thanks Mara for your excellent comments. For the record, I addressed the Bancroft issue on this thread because I am aware I have endorsed his stuff (as one source among many others, and also with the awareness he is not a Christian and has his own views of spirituality) on twitter occasionally.
But that issue is absolutely irrelevant to the issue of Doug Wilson’s bullying behavior, which stands in contrast to his professed call for freedom of speech. It seems according to his rules, we are only to speak freely if we speak to proscribed issues in society.
Unfortunately for Doug, that is in fact not free speech.
Beyond that, those of us who are Christians do have both the freedom and the responsibility to speak the truth in love. This has nothing to do with whether or not we feel permitted to do so or whether we might even be threatened with punishment for doing so. It has always cost people to speak out and stand for truth. Christians are free because we obey God, not people, not even men in the church.
I’m sick to death of seeing these nonsensical ad hominem attacks on individuals that obfuscate from the real issues at stake: namely, abuse of whole families by men who like power and control. Such prideful cult personalities are the antithesis of the types of people anyone should want advocating for free speech in society. I believe this is what Katie has pointed out in this blogpost, and I personally do not intend to engage people who want to distract from that or tell her to stop talking.
In my estimation, those who have been most persecuted as Christians or otherwise in the USA are those who stand up against abuse in the church. Professing Christians are constantly trying to shut them up, using shame and shunning. Until sin in the church is addressed honestly and removed, rather than hidden and not talked about, it is ridiculous for Christians to point the finger at an unbelieving society and claim they are censoring Christians.
“May God deal with your heart on this.
I wouldn’t want to be guilty of misusing His Word the way you are.”
Mara, God is dealing with both of us right now! The eyes of the Lord are in every place, are they not?
So far His Spirit is not convicting me of “misusing” His Word.
His Word does tell me to expose fruitless deeds of darkness, so that is why I expose cult founder Lundy Bancroft in the context of discussions about “abuse”.
It is not fair or correct to say I am trying to “shut you up”. I can’t, this is not my blog, you can and do say what ever you want.
It is simple fact that Lundy Bancroft, a favored “abuse expert” is a cult founder and a manipulative fake “abuse expert”, however popular he may be.
I do remain surprised at how resistant some are to these simple facts about Bancroft.
If you and Melody thought about it a bit more, what if I am right?
If Bancroft is an illegitimate “abuse expert”, wouldn’t your advocacy against abuse be stronger without him?
Even if we never agree on anything else, disassociating yourself from Bancroft will always be in the best interest of your “advocacy”.
Besisdes God, one is perfect. Wilson is not perfect, but at least he is not a cult founder. Lundy Bancroft is not perfect, but he is a cult founder.
Lundy Bancroft’s “wisdom” is not from above. That is why Christians should not use it.
You co-mingle to much other “stuff” with this simple point.
Maybe it’s time to quit feeding the troll here, folks.
Agreed, although the thinking being exposed the more it talks is fascinating. But absolutely agreed. 😉
IOW they do all kinds of funny tricks when you feed them. Loop do loops, zig zags, triple twirly gigs, and so much more.
They are loads-of-fun to watch, at least for me.
But then I’m not close to the situation so their tricks roll off me like water off a ducks back.
I could see where their tricks might be harmful to others who are closer to the situation and are trying to find healing.
So yep, agreed.
No more troll feeding.
I’ll have to find something else to do for entertainment.
I wonder what’s new in November on Netflix.
http://transitiontoanewworld.blogspot.com/2011/03/new-spiritual-community.html
Lundy Bancroft’s core beliefs of Nature’s Temple:
1) The human being is an animal. We are no more different from other animals than they are from each other. We are not a race apart. All the creatures of the earth are our sisters and brothers. Lundy Bancroft
4) The pursuit of ecstasy is inseparable from the pursuit of love. We strive to make our hearts ever more open to the giving and receiving of love. Lundy Bancroft
15) We believe in the beauty, sanctity, and purity of body-based sensory pleasure, whether it be the feeling of the wind on our skin, the smell of an aromatic meal, the pleasure of a massage, the squish of mud between toes, the ecstatic sounds of music, the songs of birds, the warmth of the sun on our backs, the pleasures of lovemaking, dipping into cold water, sitting under a waterfall, rolling down a hill…Lundy Bancroft
Jesus said:
Luke 6:44-46
44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?